.alpha
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by LordHavoc » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:19 am
I tend to believe that features exist to be used, limiting level design post-quake-source-release seems kind of silly to me, much like the many zdoom-requiring doom maps that have been released, why not require enhanced engine features for some maps?
- LordHavoc
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by Wazat » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:54 pm
goldenboy:
I have a big problem with your argument. At its core, it seems to be that every engine should support every possible system. No, I think not. Darkplaces is not designed to run on, say, a Razor cell phone or Commodor 64. It would not be appropriate to demand that other engines change everything about their code to run on these platforms either.
Some people have gotten Quake to run on platforms like the PSP and Dreamcast. That is *really* cool, and they have a pretty decent following. There are certain features that they simple cannot support because of the hardware limitations they live under, and it's completely appropriate -- even required -- to omit such features in their engines.
However, you are talking like you expect all engines to support all possible platforms, all possible hardware limitations. GOD NO. That means you must live by the lowest common denominator, the worst and most limited platform someone could find and demand that you support. And when someone invariably pulls out their cellphone and wants you to support that, the bar drops even lower.
Guess what? The quake community has branched out into specific niches for a reason. You exist for a reason, just like the PSP engine and Darkplaces exist: you are filling a niche. Some people want to be able to run Quake on their Dreamcast, PSP, or PC, and each of these has wildly different capabilities and limitations. Guess what? There's nothing wrong with that. Some engines can support certain features, while others omit them.
The people who are running Quake on their PSP recognize that there are some limitations they'll just have to live with. The people making the engine for these platforms likewise know these limitations, and have probably accepted them. But that is no reason for you to insult programmers of other engines for not choosing to fill that niche. Darkplaces is for people with a PC, Linux or Mac (possibly other OSs) machine that came out in, say, the last 5-8 years and have average graphics and cpu capacity for that time period. Darkplaces will not run on the PSP I think, but it wasn't meant to. That's a different niche.
Want to know what Darkplaces' niche is? It offers incredible features for programmers (which typically translates to better mods for players), and not all of them "pretty graphics". For example, it provides file I/O for QC (FRIK_FILE), entity search functions beyond just find/findradius, and yes, it provides .alpha. Alpha is an extremely useful feature for programmers and players alike, and as a programmer I have used it in many different ways in my mods (see Conquest, for example, or NexTF; other people have made various invisibility and stalking mods too). I know you don't like it, and there's nothing wrong for you not caring for alpha, but don't pretend it's not important to other people and should be easily discarded by the rest of us.
So I want you and other people in this thread to understand this: You are filling a niche, and so is the Darkplaces crowd. I also want you to understand that you are trying to fill a very wide niche, or multiple ones, and that has left you with some very stringent limitations for your engine. Insane ones, to some of us. Having to support software and low-end machines with no graphics card is crazy unless you are very specifically targeting that audience. That's your niche, and you're very limited by it BUT you may have a lot of people there that you're serving with your engine.
Just understand that other people may have a hard time agreeing with you or being interested in what you're doing, especially if they're busy doing cool stuff in their mod, map, or engine that most new engines besides yours can support, and it sounds like you're making them wrong for that.
I have a big problem with your argument. At its core, it seems to be that every engine should support every possible system. No, I think not. Darkplaces is not designed to run on, say, a Razor cell phone or Commodor 64. It would not be appropriate to demand that other engines change everything about their code to run on these platforms either.
Some people have gotten Quake to run on platforms like the PSP and Dreamcast. That is *really* cool, and they have a pretty decent following. There are certain features that they simple cannot support because of the hardware limitations they live under, and it's completely appropriate -- even required -- to omit such features in their engines.
However, you are talking like you expect all engines to support all possible platforms, all possible hardware limitations. GOD NO. That means you must live by the lowest common denominator, the worst and most limited platform someone could find and demand that you support. And when someone invariably pulls out their cellphone and wants you to support that, the bar drops even lower.
Guess what? The quake community has branched out into specific niches for a reason. You exist for a reason, just like the PSP engine and Darkplaces exist: you are filling a niche. Some people want to be able to run Quake on their Dreamcast, PSP, or PC, and each of these has wildly different capabilities and limitations. Guess what? There's nothing wrong with that. Some engines can support certain features, while others omit them.
The people who are running Quake on their PSP recognize that there are some limitations they'll just have to live with. The people making the engine for these platforms likewise know these limitations, and have probably accepted them. But that is no reason for you to insult programmers of other engines for not choosing to fill that niche. Darkplaces is for people with a PC, Linux or Mac (possibly other OSs) machine that came out in, say, the last 5-8 years and have average graphics and cpu capacity for that time period. Darkplaces will not run on the PSP I think, but it wasn't meant to. That's a different niche.
Want to know what Darkplaces' niche is? It offers incredible features for programmers (which typically translates to better mods for players), and not all of them "pretty graphics". For example, it provides file I/O for QC (FRIK_FILE), entity search functions beyond just find/findradius, and yes, it provides .alpha. Alpha is an extremely useful feature for programmers and players alike, and as a programmer I have used it in many different ways in my mods (see Conquest, for example, or NexTF; other people have made various invisibility and stalking mods too). I know you don't like it, and there's nothing wrong for you not caring for alpha, but don't pretend it's not important to other people and should be easily discarded by the rest of us.
So I want you and other people in this thread to understand this: You are filling a niche, and so is the Darkplaces crowd. I also want you to understand that you are trying to fill a very wide niche, or multiple ones, and that has left you with some very stringent limitations for your engine. Insane ones, to some of us. Having to support software and low-end machines with no graphics card is crazy unless you are very specifically targeting that audience. That's your niche, and you're very limited by it BUT you may have a lot of people there that you're serving with your engine.
Just understand that other people may have a hard time agreeing with you or being interested in what you're doing, especially if they're busy doing cool stuff in their mod, map, or engine that most new engines besides yours can support, and it sounds like you're making them wrong for that.
When my computer inevitably explodes and kills me, my cat inherits everything I own. He may be the only one capable of continuing my work.
- Wazat
- Posts: 771
- Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:50 pm
- Location: Middle 'o the desert, USA
25 posts
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